Suffering by comparison: Italian vs. French wine

No, friends, I am not here to write about the supposed inferiority of Italian wine compared with French wine. 

I'm here to ask why there is such a different mind set with regard to Italian wine compared with French wine.  And not solely or mainly on the part of the great buying public, but on the trade's part as well. 

In other words, why doesn't Italian wine receive the same respect as French wine, or at least the same openness to quality and distinctiveness that French wine enjoys?  No matter how obscure the appellation or minute the quantities produced.

Something a well-regarded Italian producer told me got my curiosity up -- and maybe my Irish.  He'd been with a couple of well-regarded US importers, both of whom specialize in France.  So why didn't it work out with them?  His answer: "They made it plain that French wines were the ones that mattered.  They see Italian wines as being Serie B [second class]." 

This wasn't the first time I'd heard of such a experience from an Italian wine producer.  It's unfortunate for the producer, but perhaps it's understandable.  No one in any category can be all things to all people, especially if you run a small, hands-on operation.  Everyone has his likes and dislikes -- his passion and his duty.  Very true in the world of wine; you go into it because Dionysus has made you a bit insane for the stuff and for the lands and the people and the traditions that make wine from (say) the Cote d'Or or Montalcino what it is.

But I think there's something else going on here.  And it hit me when I was reading the Kermit Lynch

appreciation "Sipping with a Pro" on The Pour the other day. 

It has to do with the way Lynch (one of the importers mentioned by the Italian producer) and Asimov and, eventually, a slew of commenters talked about the wine.

First, it struck me how similar their philosophical positions on winemaking and ageing are to received opinion in Italy today: heavy on natural practices in the vineyard, minimal intervention (whatever that might mean in a difficult year), easy on the new wood in cantina, etc. 

Second, Lynch dismissed the appellation system as outmoded and anti-competitive.  A common Italian argument, enriched by the awareness that in Italy the DOC system is hopelessly compromised by sweetheart deals and ever looser standards.

The third and, to me, most telling point was Asimov's paragraph on American importers "...crawling all over the back roads of France – despite the value of the dollar – [as] new and exciting domaines continue to be turned up."

Yes, a similar phenomenon is happening in Italy.  No, I do not believe that it is being regarded in quite so positive a way.

This is where I feel France and Italy receive different treatment in the wine press (including blogland but mostly mainstream media).  It's where I feel the wine trade in America betrays a deep French bias.  And I will pull one of my comments (#18) from Eric's post to illustrate my point:

I’ve always found it both interesting and annoying to hear new wine “discoveries” received so differently. 

French example: “This is a 100% Savagnin from the organic vineyard of X at an elevation of 1500 ft., aged in old oak tonneaux for 18 months, unfiltered and unrefined. Only 321.5 cases made.”

Reaction:  “Fantastic!  A rare artisanal wine of extraordinary complexity!  A splendid wine for the discriminating wine lover.”

Plug in comparable Italian variables and what do you hear? “The name’s confusing, too much like Sauvignon Blanc, it tastes oxidized, it’s cloudy, it’s weird, it’s not fruity enough, the quantities are too small to find a market, anyway it will never sell ’cause we got enough weird Italian wine around already.”

I may be exaggerating for effect, sure, but trust me, the mentality is there.  People are willing to let a French wine explain itself, so to speak, but they brush right past when you try to tell them about a small Italian wine that excites you:

"Where's it from?"

"Puglia."

"Puglia!  Jesus!"  End of discussion.  If I mentioned some previously despised area of Languedoc-Roussillon, the next thing said would be:

"Really?"  And the conversation would continue.

I suspect there are several reasons for this disparity -- dis-parity, in the truest sense of the word.

If nothing else, Italy's wine image is less glamorous than France's.  Is this some sort of holdover from the glory days of French wine, back in some mythic British telling of the tale?  Is it because the most influential wine writers, American and British, still obsess over First Growths and big bucks in the futures market? 

If the image is now outdated, what are the correctives -- so that even people in the trade realize that hectare for hectare, cepage for vitigno, terroir for terroir, Italy can be as accomplished and varied a wine country as France?

"You may be right / I may be crazy" ... but I still want to hear from you on this one.  I think it's a big, juicy question that has legs.

Comments

[gianpaolo]

I've been commenting about the Italy vs France thing regarding the Michelin Guide. I think that same rationale could apply to wine.
French aren't better than Italians, neither at food or at wine. French have been, and are, much better at promoting the idea of French quality and French glamour. They are better because they are capable of working together, or at least they are much better at that than the Italian. It's easy, because Italians are very bad at that: working together for a common goal. This is unfortunately true for every aspect of Italian life, not only for the cuisine or the wine.
The only reason why we can sell wine well in countries like US is because italian food is much more regarded than french food. Be careful, I'm not talking about the cuisine, but the food. Everyone more or less agrees that our ingredients are of super high quality and there is nearly an infinite variation of them. And of course, the millions of emigrants from Italy that settled in USA have been very important in promoting the food, but they didn't necessarily bring a glamourous look over Italian cuisine.
In other words, we have the stuff, they have the marketing.

[Marco]

Bravo!

[andrea gori]

in my opinion is also a question of terms and school of sommelerie and wine tasting training that were both first developed in france. If you judge a wine using french methods (or similar like the ones we use in italy) is normal that French wines outscores our wines. But still in my opinion, maybe the really (100?) best french wine are unbeatable but after these and long before other country wines (california, australia, chile...) italian wines are good enough to worth hearing a discussion about Puglia!

[Mike Tommasi]

Hi Terry !

I love grand questions like this, it allows one to indulge in generalizations that are lots of fun :-)

You ask this question so soon after a thread appeared on Bonilli's Gambero blog about the perceived raw deal Italian restaurants get on the allegedly chauvinist Michelin guide. I commented there that chauvinism has nothing to do with it, otherwise the Michelin guide would not give out so many stars around Girona or San Sebastian, where star establishments are plentiful and remarkable, and, justifiably, so few in Provence, where I live.

I had been commenting on that blog that ON AVERAGE restaurants in Spain and France are truly mediocre, while the top restaurants are true shining stars, the contrast is immense. In Italy one eats far better on average - the people’s cooking was never suppressed by a bourgeois revolution, and today we have the reinvented “osteria”. Yes there is too much balsamico and lardo and those huge Riedels are a bit ridiculous for a country inn, but that is far better than eating crap in a bistrot! OTOH top restaurants are much tamer than their French counterparts, often trying to "be French" or "be Catalan"... :-) There just isn't enough of a difference! And the worse part is Italian desserts, I compared these to a national disaster. These comments of course made me tons of friends - lots of “commendatori” braying “Lei” this and “Lei” that... and this despite my being a pedigree wop who is merely living in France and dying to go home - which I do once a month.

I suspect that the same situation obtains regarding wines. The average French wine is quite close to undrinkable, it is very hard (but not impossible) to find a good 10€ wine for every day, but above that sea of plonk the good wines truly stand out, a huge quality difference. In Italy the average wine is much better thanks to more widespread technology and the national cult of oenologists, one can find a very pleasant “vino quotidiano”. But the top wines seem to never quite reach for the top. The best passito or the best muffato is not even comparable to a good SGN from Alsace, the top whites of Friuli don’t even come close to a decent Macon white, and though things do get better in the reds, we still have too many wines that hold back, that are kept on too short a leash. And again they try to “be French” by putting Cab and Merlot everywhere… There just isn’t enough difference between the top tier and the average!

Being able, like you, to visit wineries often in both countries, I notice that in France there are far more young incredibly talented winemakers appearing on the scene with little more than their savings as capital, and getting their wines out on the market somehow. In Italy it seems wine startups are far better financed and it is oenologists, not winemakers, doing the innovating, so the wines they make tend to be technological quality stuff often lacking in the soul department.

In Italy it seems to me that in any wine appellation there is more uniformity, there are few people trying to go for terroir or character. The situation is even more dramatic in the South. Languedoc and Roussillon are truly exciting (but seem to have no marketing ideas). Puglia and Sicily have all the marketing savvy, but the wines are all so similar.

@Gianpaolo : I agree that the French IN GENERAL seem to know how to promote an impression of quality, but taken individually small quality wineries are LOUSY at marketing, the LABELS are atrocious, they do not raise expectations. Italians maybe cannot convey that air of quality overall, but wineries are much better at marketing, labels are attractive and original, and the further south you go the better they seem at promoting (Sicily always has a super stand at Vinexpo).

There, now I’ve made some more friends, having insulted both sides of the Alps… but at least I’m fair ! :-)

[razmaspaz]

I'll admit that when it comes to Italian wines I'm dumb. I don't know much about them, and thats part of why I read your blog.

I think a big part of the problem is image and perception. Others have pointed out that France is doing a bad job of marketing their wines. Maybe, but maybe they are doing a good job of marketing their image. French wine carries a mystery to it, a complexity, and an air of unattainability. Its either too expensive, too complicated, or too something else...

When I think of France I see it as daunting sure, but I've also been convinced that it is a worthy challenge to accept to become a French wine drinker. Learning about France somehow makes me smarter, or more noble or some crap. Maybe the reason France sells wine is because their bottles and regions and laws are too complicated.

I don't really know what comes to mind when I think of Italy. Tuscany, rustic and expensive are the three things I think of first. If you want to champion Italian wines either change those things in my mind, or convince me they are worth seeking out.

[Terry Hughes]

Great comments, everyone. Thanks -- and keep 'em coming too.

I have time only to make a few comments based on your comments.

Andres is on to something when he mentions the role of language, the terminology of wine tasting and connoisseurship is rooted in French. And that is rooted in the long cultural prestige that France enjoyed until quite recently, with the final cultural victory (!?) of the dread anglo-saxons.

Gianpaolo is correct when he links this prestige, this image of sophistication and beauty, to wine -- it's all part of the great French luxury machine, and it's still going strong (there wouldn't be so many fake Vuitton purses in the world otherwise).

Mike makes some nice distinctions between what/how the French and Italians do things, and what he says has special resonance, I think, because he lives in both "zones" -- he lives in France but is of Italian (and British) parentage, and spent his earliest years in Italy. His point about the better food and wine "on the average" in Italy is right on the money.

I must add that I've heard more than one Italian wine maker say in effect, "France is our school for wine." The prestige and examples of excellence are there for them to see and taste as well. Emulation may lead to Cab and Merlot planted all over Italy, but the desire for balance, elegance, eclat and -- OK, let's be crass -- more money drives the Italians.

So where the hell does that leave us?

[Jeff Mazen]

Shhhhhhh!

You'll let the cat out of the bag. I too find it strange that Italian wines, with the exception of producers like Bruno Giacosa and others of his stature, have been largely overlooked by the American consumer. As distasteful as many of you may find this, certain reviewers wield a tremendous amount of power when they speak out about a particular region of the world. If Mr. Parker makes comments regarding the Rhone valley or Bordeaux I'm going to take notice. His track record has been stellar in those places and I'd challenge anyone to prove otherwise. Tanzer's publication went ga-ga over '97 Brunello and I have found the majority of these wines to seriously underperform thus undermining IWC's credibility in my mind.

I can see Terry squirming in his seat as I write this but I have a point to make. No one should follow any of these guys blindly but there is an ocean of wine to be tasted and drunk and quite frankly we all need a bit of a road map. I believe that's part of the reason any of you are here. Terry has done an exceptional job of finding value in wines mostly off the beaten path. Are you coming here to learn about emerging collectibles from Piedmont? Probably not. Do you trust Gambero Rosso? I don't. I've quite enjoyed the WA's Italian reviews since Antonio Galloni has begun writing for them. I think he's extremely thorough and his palate seems to match up with mine more often than not. His advocacy may be just the shot in the arm Italian wines may need and then prices will spiral out of control just as they have in France. When the top wines get eaten up by collectors, the lesser ones will surely start to hit the radar. It won't happen overnight but if France is any indicator, the trend may develop. Let the feeding frenzy begin!

Just my 2 cents.

[Terry Hughes]

Points well taken, sir. I too think Galloni has made a tremendous difference for treatment of Italian wines at WA.

Thomases also helps and he is an interesting case because he bridges the worlds of RP and Hugh Johnson and his (esteemed, IMO) crew. And the Veronelli Guide and so forth.

I will soon post on the wildly varying levels of quality in Puglia, an emerging region.

BTW, Jeff, email me privately...

[alex]

Great piece.

Well, count me in on the "Italians know culture" wagon. There is little proper rationalization to claim the French are better than the Italians - they're not.

Italy takes a backseat to no one on matters of good taste. It's odd that Italian engineering and fashion design doesn't suffer from the problems faced by the wine industry.

I look at it this way, Italian products are of such sophistication it sometimes goes right over the heads of people. I see this in their soccer too. Many casual fans hate it and dismiss it as defensive. Examine it further and there's much, much more to it.

The French were taught, remember, the foundations of high cuisine by Catherine de Medici - something they originally scoffed at.

There's always been a, shall we say, condescension towards Italy by France - and England for that matter. More often than not, this snobbery finds its ways into magazines somehow.

Personally, I find Italian wines (as well as France) superb and if people don't see it, too bad for them. Better for the rest of us.

And by the way, Asti and Prosecco are kick ass sparkling wines/champagnes.

[alex]

By the way, sales of Italian wines are very strong here in Quebec from what I hear.

[Strappo]

Alex, thanks for the comments. I had said it many times, I love French wines as well as Italian ones. For everyday drinking and for sheer character, I think Italian wines stand up to France's extremely well.

As to the highest levels of wine connoisseurship, it may be that the quality strides of late in Italy will eventually change the way the wines are tasted, rated, appreciated. And priced. And I mean beyond Barolo and the usual etc.

[alex]

Yes, I agree. I'm not an expert; i just go with what I observe.

That all being said, a nice Beaujolais is always welcomed!

[Strappo]

Bien sur! And a good Cotes du Rhone too.

[Joël Marbach]

Interesting blog and interesting reactions. I think the subject was very well introduced because one should not compare italian and french wines. They are surely the best in the world, but come from different regions, different producers and therefore are all unique in their own way.
Regarding the food, it's also a question of taste. Both are brilliant, even though I still have the impression after 1.5 years I spent living in Italy that the french food has a lot more variety to offer. If the italian food exported better it is surely because more italians immigrated, but also because dishes such as pasta or pizza are very cheap.
Finally I completely disagree with Mike Tomassi when he says you can't find a good wine at €10 in France. Every wine producer of every wine region will propose you some.
Now when I buy bottles here in Italy for this price, I'm not always guaranteed it'll be good. So I believe the experiences one has had also affects hugely his perception of wines.
Now the question : Why is it so hard to find foreign wines in Italy, where in France you can find italian wines everywhere ?

[TH]

Joel, I thank you for your comment. Its funny that you single out the greater variety of French food, because I feel that Italy offers much more variety -- compare Puglia and Trentino for example, never mind Milan vs. Siracusa.

Well, that may be an unprovable matter of opinion.

Italian wine shops carry a very small selection, typically, and most of what they do carry is very much focused on the local product. If there are any foreign wines, my observation is that they're more likely to be French than anything.

All in all, of course, both countries give the world superb foods and wines, sort of two sides of the same Latin coin.